Wise Counsel Interview Podcast: Steven Levenkron, MS on Childhood Sexual Abuse of Women
Dr. David Van Nuys: Welcome to Wise Counsel, a podcast interview series sponsored by MentalHealth.net, covering topics in Mental Health, Wellness, and Psychotherapy. My name is Dr. David Van Nuys. I'm a clinical psychologist, and your host.
On today's show we will be talking with Steven Levenkron, who along with his wife is author of the 2007 book "Stolen Tomorrows: Understanding and Treating Women's Childhood Sexual Abuse." Steven Levenkorn, M.S. is a well known psychotherapist in New York City, and the author of seven books‑‑ both fiction and nonfiction.
He's known for his original and groundbreaking work in both the theoretical consumption and clinical treatment of anorexia nervosa, self‑mutilation, and obsessive compulsive disorder.
His clinical work with patients began in 1970, and is based on the nurturant authoritative approach that he developed as a result of treating the victims of these endangering disorders.
In his private practice he has assisted many young people in their recovery from these serious disorders helping them back to healthy, productive lives. Together with his wife and co‑therapist Abby Levenkron, he continues to see patients in his New York office.
Now, here's the interview.
Steven Levenkron, welcome to the Wise Counsel podcast.
Steven Levenkron, M.S: I'm glad to be here.
Dr. David Van Nuys: Yeah, we were just having a nice conversation just before we began, about appearances that you've done on the "Larry King Show." I was very impressed by that. You told me a story about getting preempted by the President though, [chuckles] so that's quite a story.
I've been reading, and enjoying, and learning from your book "Stolen Tomorrows: Understanding and Treating Women's Childhood Sexual Abuse." Early on in the book you say that, "The book could be characterized as a psychotherapist notebook." What do you mean by that?
Steven Levenkron: Well, different people write books about psychology. Researchers write books that are full of statistics, diagnosticians write books that are laden heavily with psychological jargon and diagnosis. As a therapist who treats, who roughly works 30 hours a week doing psychotherapy, I write in my spare time.
But my books are filled with my patients, and what happens between us. I usually will work with a problem for years, before I'll write a book about it. The book usually comes alive, because it's full of the life of the patients that I worked with. It's got segments of sessions we've had. So instead of doing road area statistics, the generalizations I make, and the statements I make are based on in the case of this book, what 35 patients have said to me.
Dr. David Van Nuys: Yes, and I...
Steven Levenkron: That's 35 patients long‑term.
Dr. David Van Nuys: Yes, and I really appreciated that quality of your book. Something that I really liked was the whole middle section is devoted to‑‑I guess it's about seven detailed case studies. Something that I liked though, was that you foreshadowed those and gave a capsule summary in an earlier chapter, which was really kind of a nice heads‑up, that showed where things were going to be going.
So, maybe one place for us to start here is the definition of "Sexual Abuse." What is that definition these days?
Steven Levenkron: OK, the definition I'm giving you for the purpose of this book involves basically a child from one year old to 12 or 13 years old. It involves a perpetrator who is sexually kissing that child, touching that child, violating or penetrating that child, raping that child, or being exhibitionistic in front of that child.
Dr. David Van Nuys: OK, that's pretty clear. What are some of the‑‑you talk about the key indicators that sort of tip you off to something has been going on that shouldn't be going on.
Steven Levenkron: Well what we see in the child is‑‑first of all, the child's experience is often an experience of pain and terror, because children don't have modesty. So, there's no embarrassment or humiliation, but there's terror and there's pain. There's the feeling that, "No one will ever protect me again in this life." Now they don't think that sentence, but they feel that feeling.
I have worked with, I guess 20 year olds, who can remember being molested before they could talk, and they said their molester stopped. In one case it was a father. "When I started talking, because he thought I couldn't remember if I couldn't talk, and I still remembered."
Dr. David Van Nuys: That's interesting.
Steven Levenkron: But, the prevalency is appalling that in this country, and your listeners, basically the prevalency among them would be a minimum of 20%.
Dr. David Van Nuys: Wow!
Steven Levenkron: 20% and for this purposes of my work, which is all with women and girls. It is one out of five adult women have been molested as a child, and then one out of five children are being molested by somebody as we speak.
Dr. David Van Nuys: Yeah. That is alarming, and it also‑‑every time I hear statistics I think, "Well gee whiz, maybe Freud got it right." At first he thought that he was hearing‑‑that his patients were telling him stories that essentially seemed like they were about molestations. He backed off of that theory after a point saying, "Well, maybe they're just making this up out of their own unconscious, and projecting it by creating these screams memories." But certainly the frequencies are so high, as to suggest that he wasn't entirely wrong in his initial impression.
Steven Levenkron: Some of us are a little suspicious that by since he was being supported by their parents, and most child molestation occurs within the family, that he didn't want to get in trouble.
Dr. David Van Nuys: Yes, that would be another dimension of it all right. Now, you talk about the initial reactions. When a person is a child there's certain reactions that show up, later they're different reactions as an adult. Let's start with a child. What are the initial reactions that happen with a child?
Steven Levenkron: With a child what is destroyed within the child is her ability to trust, to depend, or to really attach to anyone. That she becomes internally isolated, psychologically isolated, regardless of how appropriate she seems to be externally. She doesn't really like to be touched by anyone. She doesn't like strangers, she doesn't like to get too close to people. We may see signs of childhood depression. We may see signs of excessive cleanliness.
I've worked with women who remember trying to wash off the DNA in effect, of the perpetrator. They spend hours in the shower scrubbing themselves internally and externally. So, they are more withdrawn. They're not happy children. I had a girl bring in... well, a girl, she's 19... she brought in a dozen photos of herself taken from age six to age 20, and she's frowning in every photo because her uncle was molesting her every time the family went to the beach. He was penetrating her from under the water.
Dr. David Van Nuys: These are certainly signs that our listeners should be alert to. When you give that figure of one in five that means that it's likely that one in five of our listeners will have had an experience, perhaps at least the female listeners. There are all their family members and friends of families, and they may see some evidence of some of these things.
One thing I was wondering is to some extent this can be looked at as a form of post traumatic stress syndrome, and I know in the case of PTSD early intervention sometimes leads to a good prognosis. Is that the case here, if somehow it comes to light while the person is still a young child that the prognosis is a lot better?
Steven Levenkron: Well, I think the longer it takes to come to light, and by the way often it never comes to light... the longer it takes to come to light, the more ideas that are dangerous and destructive to the child develop.
Dr. David Van Nuys: Yes.
Steven Levenkron: For example, children who are molested develop a sense of self blame. "It must be my fault," because children are incapable of blaming adults. They may make noise, they may sound bratty, but they're truly emotionally incapable of blaming adults, because if it's the adult's fault, then truly there are no adults around. What self blame is followed by is self hatred, low self esteem, social discomfort, self sabotage, timidity, a lack of assertiveness, and damaging in their own parenting when they assume that.
On the sicker level, we have dissociation which is a trance‑like state where people lose time and don't know what's going on around them, we have multiple personalities, and just blatant psychosis.
Dr. David Van Nuys: Yes. Now you're getting into that second part of the question, the later reactions as an adult. I think those are some of the reactions. Are there more that you'd like to comment on?
Steven Levenkron: We do see adolescent behavioral disorders in most of these girls. They're not the only reason that could cause these disorders, but they're highly contributing too many of them. They include anorexia, bulimia, compulsive overeating, cutting themselves, burning themselves, every kind of self mutilation, and obsessive‑compulsive disorders.
Early alcoholism is common. When we see a 13 year old alcoholic, she's found a way to forget what she wants to forget. We also see sexual behavior that shows something's wrong, that we see in addition to substance abuse, which is not a sexual behavior. We see the avoidance of sexual behavior and sexual involvement which can be achieved by overweight, or underweight, or looking unattractive.
We see people seeking abuse from other people. We see them seeking physical, sexual abuse as if to prove they can take it, or to get it over with. Sometimes we see sexual domination. In other words, they are saying, "Well, I can take charge of what happens to me. I can drag the fellow off to bed and in a sense I'm doing to him what was done to me."
Dr. David Van Nuys: So it can go to one of two extremes, then, and in the middle too, I'm sure, but either being terribly avoidant of sexuality or all the way on the other end, very promiscuous, and dangerously promiscuous.
Steven Levenkron: Absolutely. And the more extreme they are, the more likely it stems from this early abuse. I remember a woman coming into my office and looking like a very, very... a caricature of a male. She was the toughest‑looking, most masculine woman you ever saw. I motioned for her to come in to the treatment room, to my consultation room, and she said, "Oh, no, I can't let you walk behind me." My heart sunk, because when someone who looks like she looks and dresses like she dresses says that to me, I know what was done to her. I know she was thrown down on her stomach and assaulted from behind, in her case by her father and two brothers. That took us a couple of months to get to.
Dr. David Van Nuys: Yes, I can imagine.
Steven Levenkron: The instant she said, "I can't allow you to walk behind me" I knew that. I felt so sad.
She came in, and she sat down, and she looked around and said, "You know, I destroyed my last shrink's office." And she said this in the most masculine vocal style.
I said, "I guess you were mad at him."
We worked together, and she brought her girlfriend in with her... or her domestic partner, or whatever you're going to call them... and we were dealing with sexual issues. She turned to her partner, who had been my anorexic patient who recovered, and she said, "So is he going to be in bed with us?" I said to her, and she's the girl I call Gina in the book... I said, "In a manner of speaking, yes."
She didn't know what to do with me, because I wasn't offended, I wasn't intimidated, and I wasn't angry at her. After about three or four months, I said, "You know, Gina, I suspect you like me." She looked at the ceiling and said "Oh, you're so conceited." And I said, "No, no. What I'm saying is I suspect you can't see me as one of the bad guys, and you've been able to see every man in your life as one of the bad guys."
She didn't respond, and a week later she brought me a candy bar. Two weeks later she brought me a book and she said, "You know, Steve, I really like this book."
When you see those lesbians or those cross‑dressers who are extremely masculine, a real caricature of masculinity, there's a pretty fair chance they have been the most tormented on any spectrum of all abused children, because they have to look like the man so that nobody would want to go after them as they were when they looked like girls.
Dr. David Van Nuys: Have you ever said that in a public forum where there were a bunch of lesbians? It sounds like the kind of non‑PC statement that could draw a lot of fire.
Steven Levenkron: It's a non‑PC statement, and I'm saying it's not true for all lesbians at all. I don't even think it's true for a majority. But when I see the extreme, then I have to wonder what's been done, how they've been hurt. There are lesbians that have never been hurt. I suspect that most of them, although we don't have statistics, have never been hurt sexually. But on the other hand, I have seen a number who have, and who have made that kind of adaptation, or others. Obviously I've also treated lesbians who have never been harmed by anyone.
I think every generalization I've made about every group, for example when I've talked about eating disorders, or I've talked about low self esteem. There are lots of people, maybe most, who have not had any sexual abuse. However, we want to rule out sexual abuse when we see these people because we need to know how intense the treatment becomes, because it's contributory.
Dr. David Van Nuys: Yes. You've made a point that most of the people when they walk into your office, they don't present themselves as coming in for sexual abuse. What kinds of presenting issues do they come in with?
Steven Levenkron: The most common presenting issue is cutting. They come in as cutters, which is another way of putting up with pain, which they reframe into intensity. Usually they will tell me after four or five months that they are having flashbacks, they are having memories that feel like they are living it right then. They go back 20 years, they go back 30 years. Or they go back 10 or 15 years. Then we talk about them. We do not go looking for them. In other words, I do not really look for hidden memories; I am not interested in hypnosis. I think when people are safe enough to remember, their mind will permit them to remember.
Dr. David Van Nuys: Yes, there is that whole danger of therapist‑suggested memories.
Steven Levenkron: Absolutely. Absolutely. There is no reason, if you suggest it to someone who hasn't been molested, then they begin to wonder. Because as a therapist you are an authority. Maybe I've been molested and I just don't know. And you've done terrible damage to them.
Dr. David Van Nuys: Well, even people...
Steven Levenkron: I have to be hit over the head with it.
Dr. David Van Nuys: That's good.
Steven Levenkron: I have these memories and they are driving me crazy. OK. Then we'll deal with it.
Dr. David Van Nuys: yes. Right. How do these people find you? DO you have a reputation as the person that people who are cutting they should be referred to you? How do you end up with all these cutters?
Steven Levenkron: Very simple. In 1999, I published the first book on the subject in 15 years called Cutting.
Dr. David Van Nuys: Oh, OK.
Steven Levenkron: Cutting is in German, Dutch, Japanese and two Chinese editions. The sale of Cutting accounts for 49% of sales of books on that subject worldwide. So absolutely.
Dr. David Van Nuys: You are recognized as the expert on cutting.
Steven Levenkron: Yes. Because therapists as a group did not bargain for blood when they wanted to study psychology. I am the Cassandra of therapists. I wrote the first book on anorexia published just the same year Hildebrook wrote the Golden Cage, in 1978. Everyone thought I was writing about the four anorexics in the United States.
Dr. David Van Nuys: The four!
Steven Levenkron: Yeah. When I wrote the book on cutting, they said, what's the prevalency. The Canadian Broadcasting System did me a favor and gave a questionnaire to school psychologists all over Canada, and they came up with one out of 150. In the United States it is shaping up to one out of 70.
Many therapists don't want to go near it for two reasons. One, they are not comfortable with blood and first aid. The second is, they have a fear of liability. The anorexic can starve to death very slowly and by then a whole team is involved. The cutter can make a cut and bleed out accidentally. I want to emphasize accidentally, because this is a ritual, this is not a suicidal behavior. It can be inadvertently fatal, but that's inadvertent.
The therapists don't want the liability. They are worried. Most of the lecturing I've been doing for the last five years has been about cutting only to groups of therapists, like psychotherapists, psychologists, psychiatrists to basically calm them down about it.
The book gives them a kind of general picture of the entire disorder. Previously it was thought that cutters ought to be put in the backwards and forgotten about, they were hopelessly crazy. Now we see it as another ritual that for the most part begins during adolescence. The person who does that ritual basically feels like they are going to live to cut again.
The cutters come in types. We talk about the angry cutter, like the young man that says I cut myself so that I don't cut anybody else. I thought, oh, that's why I treat girls.
Dr. David Van Nuys: yeah really.
Steven Levenkron: there was... Let's see. There are in addition to the angry cutters, we have the depressed cutters. They are more in danger. The most severe are the dissociative cutters. They are the ones that have been molested as kids. The dissociative cutter basically is the most in danger because she can go into a trance and hit an artery. She is not in control.
Dr. David Van Nuys: And not really feel it? Is that right? They are sort of anesthetized?
Steven Levenkron: Exactly. We don't know how deep that blade is going to go. I've actually instructed cutters. I had one cutter who literally cut on her inner thigh, not far from her femoral artery. And was going to work in the morning, and put her knife away, came out of her trance, started driving. When she felt the blood running down her leg, she knew she was a cutter, she immediately drove herself to the emergency room where she got 12 stitches. This is not the behavior of a suicidal person.
Dr. David Van Nuys: She was just cutting herself there to hide her behavior from the world, I presume?
Steven Levenkron: She was actually a molested child. Her brother molested her for years. Most of the people who come to me who we find are child‑abused people; most of their symptoms are cutting. Second to cutting, we have anorexia. But primarily, they are cutters.
Dr. David Van Nuys: Yes, interesting. Another feature of the book that I liked quite a bit, as you talked about the underlying neuropsychological consequences of early trauma, and how these early abuse experiences actually impair brain development. Maybe you can talk about that a bit.
Steven Levenkron: Well, when a child experiences trauma, and there are many fine books written about trauma. What happens is‑‑ all of us in childhood develop two kinds of memory. And there are physical organs in the brain. They are triangular shapes, and they have different names. The orderly memory, which can say yesterday for an hour and a half I did this. Beginning, middle, end. That's called the hippocampus. When someone is traumatized, the hippocampus is overwhelmed, and it spills over into what we call the amygdale.
The trouble with the amygdale is, it's not an organized memory. Any part of trauma that is absorbed by the amygdale can reattack the person 10 years later, and they will break down into a sweat and they feel the same thing. We see this in the army for example. They used to call it battle fatigue or shell shock. It doesn't have to be sexual. Any kind of trauma where the person feels that they are likely to die or be trapped for life will go into the amygdale.
I contend that sexual trauma is different because it is reinforced, it has to be adapted to, and then we get into this term I call the forever factor which means, if it's a member of the family who has continual access to the child, the child says, this is going to go on forever. I have to adjust to it. I have to get used to it. The adjustment to the forever factor is what will develop them into sick personalities and in fact will enlarge the brain's development of the amygdale because it's doing so much absorbing and in experiments with therapy they have measured the size of the amygdale at the onset and several years later, and find it's gotten smaller.
Dr. David Van Nuys: That's great. The latest research that they are able to do now with FMRI's. I've been taking a lot of continuing education courses recently on anxiety and Asperser's syndrome. All of them have been able to talk very specifically about these brain mechanisms.
When I was a graduate student we had to memorize all those places in the brain, the anatomy of the brain, but we really didn't know what any of it did. It seems like the knowledge is just developing exponentially and we always sort of knew that the brain drives our behavior in many ways. But we didn't really realize the degree to which our experience also actually shapes these physical structures for worse. And as you point out in the case of therapy, actually demonstrably for better.
Steven Levenkron: Absolutely. If you think of people who ride pedal stationary bicycles in Chinese rice paddy fields, where what they are doing is they are raising water from a lower level to an upper level with very little stimulation all day. If they start that young enough, their brain is accustomed to minimal stimulation. You and I might blow our brains out if we had to do that for weeks. But these people would be overwhelmed by a society or life that suddenly became overstimulated.
The brain actually physically grows and chemically grows to suit what's happening in life. You hear the term chemical imbalance all the time. A chemical imbalance doesn't have to be genetic. Because we can coerce the brain to develop chemically and physically in different ways.
Dr. David Van Nuys: Yes. You've been doing therapy in this area for a number of years. I get the impression that you have evolved an approach. You say it's long‑term work. Maybe you can describe that approach you've evolved, and whether or not there are distinct stages of treatment and recovery.
Steven Levenkron: What I do with people who come in initially, very often they don't know what to say. This is going to be changed in the future, and I want to get back to that. There is so much self blame which induces so much shame, that a lot of this cannot be said by the person who comes in for treatment.
So what I do, I go through generalizing about all of the different kinds of effects, some of them will refer to them and some won't, but usually most of them do. These are the kinds of ways that people have developed and reacted to being traumatized sexually as children. When they hear them, I'll stop at one point, and I'll say "is any of this ringing a bell?" and they will say "oh my God, almost all of it."
That is the beginning of trust. I had one girl say to her parents, she was about 18, leaving the office. She said, I've got to see this person, because he told me things about myself that I've always known and never told anybody, so he must know what he's doing. And we've got the beginning of trust at that point.
Dr. David Van Nuys: Interesting.
Steven Levenkron: Then what happens is, as I talk and you hear I'm hoarse because if I work with too many such people in one day, for the first six months of treatment I have to do a lot of talking and teaching. But, as I talk, they start to chime in. "Yeah, "un‑huh, that's me", "Oh yeah", "oh my god", "yes".
And sometimes they dissociate in the office and go into a stare. I have to find where their eyes are and kind of put my hand there and then in the direction, let's say they are sitting across from me and staring at the carpet, I'll put my hand down near the carpet and bring it up to my face, and I'll say, let's end the dissociative event.
From chiming in they start talking. My task is to teach them a language and let them know that we can talk about these events and help them ultimately in terms of stages become enraged at the perpetrator, not themselves. We have to transfer the anger away from themselves, blame self‑hatred, and permit them to be enraged the person who harmed them.
Dr. David Van Nuys: I think, I can see that many people have been frustrated when they've sought out a therapy that was not as structured, not as didactic as yours is. Because they just, as you say, they don't know what to say and they are looking for direction from an expert, and many therapists have been taught not to hold themselves forward very much as an expert. So I think it's reassuring that you come on with expertise and initially carry the weight, and then they begin to join in.
Steven Levenkron: They feel protected, if I understand. And then they can chime in. What I think is going to happen is after "Stolen Tomorrows" is out for a while; people will be able to come in. For example one woman come in and she said to me "I had to see you". She is 38 and she said, "I had to see you because of one of the chapters in your book." I said, "Really? Which chapter?" and she said, "The chapter about iatrogenic damage"
Dr. David Van Nuys: For our listeners, in case our listeners don't know, iatrogenic refers to doctor caused or doctor induced.
Steven Levenkron: Yes, and to give the doctor the benefit of the doubt, iatrogenic actually means inadvertently caused.
Dr. David Van Nuys: yes, that's a good point.
Steven Levenkron: Let's give the guys a break.
Dr. David Van Nuys: Right.
Steven Levenkron: Because what happens is, doctors go about their work like an auto mechanic, but a car has no feelings and they could be creating havoc emotionally with the patient, especially if they are working in the urogenital area, and it isn't explained that the patient isn't anesthetized. This patient basically explained to me that she had experiences so similar to the girl in the book that when she read this chapter she started shaking. She had to get through it, but she said, "Oh my God, it's me. I've had almost the same experience." I wanted to alert medicine at this point that you can't just practice medicine by the book without knowing age and the possible psychological effects that the physical treatment will involve, especially with children in a sexual area.
Dr. David Van Nuys: Yes. Now I believe that your book will resonate with women and will bring you some more business but a lot of people who will hear this show won't be able to come to New York City so I wonder what advice you would have for them in terms of getting help elsewhere.
Steven Levenkron: Well, at the risk of sounding self‑serving and I'll get an extra dollar for it, I've had patients at each stage when I broke anorexia to the public and cutting people would come to therapists and hand the therapist their book and say could you work with me like this guy. And very often, if the therapist didn't like the idea he'd say "no" or she'd say "no", or they'd say "I'll read the book and let you know".
Dr. David Van Nuys: Yeah, good.
Steven Levenkron: And I also do lecture from Chicago East to large groups of therapists whenever I can. I don't lecture to the public because the therapists are in such need of help now that if I talk to 450 therapists in Scranton, Pennsylvania, I can be reaching 4500 patients, so it's not even economical for me to do that, so I have to help the helpers first, and since I'm in practice for about 33 years, I also have to have an obligation to younger therapists as well as patients.
Dr. David Van Nuys: Given that the women you treat have been sexually abused by men, how is it that you are able to establish trust with them? A lot of people would think well, a woman has been abused by men, probably should see a female therapist.
Steven Levenkron: I tell them that in the first session.
Dr. David Van Nuys: What do you say?
Steven Levenkron: I say, "You are very brave to come here, because you have probably been molested by a man and you come to a man for therapy and that is going to come up in our therapy. There are going to be moments when you confuse me with the predator, when you expect me to behave like the predator, and we will have to deal with that. It will be a little harder; the advantage will be if we resolve all this with the same gender person that abused you we've really resolved it." I had a woman come to me, I was the 5th therapist. She said, "I've worked with four women and now I'm finally ready to work with a man."
Dr. David Van Nuys: Interesting.
Steven Levenkron: Actually, I'm not telling you the whole story, what prepared me for this was when I started working with anorexics and I had to ask them when their last menstrual period was. Back in 1973 or '74 nobody asked questions like that, but I asked it rather matter of factly, and then as soon as I said, "are we talking about some little spotty two day period or are we talking about a real five to seven day flow?" then they knew. They knew this was casual to me. They knew this was matter of fact, and they knew they could talk about anything. So, I'd gradually give them hints. At this point I don't have to because I can cheat, everything he knows who I am. So they come in and they know you can go to Levenkron. You can go to a woman or you can go to Levenkron.
Dr. David Van Nuys: I see that your wife was a co‑author on this book. Do you work with your wife with these patients?
Steven Levenkron: No, my wife works separately with them. We don't work together in the same room. She sees patients and I see patients. I accept patients have a preference, and I say, "do you want to work with a man or a woman?" and if it's a woman I send them off to my wife, because she's lived through all this with me, co‑authored and certainly edited the book because I write a pretty sloppy first draft and without her the book might not be readable, but of course she knows all the material and the information.
Dr. David Van Nuys: OK. This has been really wonderful.
Steven Levenkron: I just wanted to add one more thing. If readers feel that they have questions which are unanswered, my website is levenkron.com not too complicated. and they can find answers to questions on all the topics we've covered today.
Dr. David Van Nuys: Steven Levenkron, thanks so much for being my guest today on Wise Council.
Steven Levenkron: It's been a pleasure, David.
Dr. David Van Nuys: I hope you enjoyed this interview with my guest Steven Levenkron. I very much enjoyed chatting with him both before and after the formal recording of our interview. It is clear to me that over the years he has developed some real clinical wisdom about a number of very challenging conditions. I hope to have him on again as a guest in the future. If you or someone you know is struggling with overcoming childhood sexual trauma, I feel quite comfortable in recommending his book as a source of both hope and insight.
You've been listening to Wise Council, a podcast interview series sponsored by mentalhelp.net. If you've found today's show interesting, we encourage you to visit mentalhelp.net where you can add a comment or question to this show's web page, view other shows from this series, or simply page though the site which is full of interesting mental health and wellness content. Access this show's page and show archive information via the podcast box on the mentalhelp.net home page. If you like Wise Council, you might also like Shrinkrap Radio, my other interview podcast series which is available online at www.shrinkrapradio.com Until next time, this is Dr David van Nuys and you've been listening to Wise Council.